I hear they're also laying the smack down on all those uber-legacy analog guys with their bag phones we're not supposed to gawk at and their neck-tumors we're not supposed stare too long at.

Well...I'm sure that they will be grandfathered in if they sign up...but they only have until the end of the month to repond and either migrate to an existing cingular plan or cancel service. If they don't respond, they take it as the customer wants to move up to the 29.99 plan with a blue to orange migration...and they ship them phones...yikes.

i hardly doubt it was without notice...

I didn't know about it until I recieved a bill for $1200...
My plan had been changed to fewer anytime minutes and the N&W minutes were removed (which I used most of being out of state and calling home)...
I tried to dispute it, but they told me to either pay it or it would go to a collection agency...
There was no notice.

jdm said:
I didn't know about it until I recieved a bill for $1200...
My plan had been changed to fewer anytime minutes and the N&W minutes were removed (which I used most of being out of state and calling home)...
I tried to dispute it, but they told me to either pay it or it would go to a collection agency...
There was no notice.

See there is a notice that is required, a simple later mailed out 30 days prior to the date switched., all cingular has to do is send it out whether you read or not is irrelevant, cuz by law we can show it was delivered to that home/apt. and thats all it takes.

This is a must for cingular to finish the merger. So people need to either cancel or go along with it simple as that. 😁

CoolCat168 said:
This is a must for cingular to finish the merger. So people need to either cancel or go along with it simple as that. 😁

I agree with you too! 😈 😈

😁

yup...take it in the a$$ or take it in the a$$ sideways....either way...take it.

just as a point of reference, Cingular didn't buy out Bellsouth, SBC and Bellsouth combined together to make a new wireless provider, which is Cingular. they own us, we don't own them.

obviously, i use the collective "we", since i just work here.


xoxo

all that preaching and you didn't answer my question....
What market(s) is this being implemented in at this time?

Which market are you?

I'm in Alabama

jdm said:
all that preaching and you didn't answer my question....
What market(s) is this being implemented in at this time?

All TDMA markets nationwide, except for the divested markets.

TDMA is on network, it just isn't the network we would like them to be using. You are getting your "clauses" confused.

I would be curious to actually see one of these letters. Has anyone actually seen one of these letters or is this all just speculation?

texaswireless said:
TDMA is on network, it just isn't the network we would like them to be using. You are getting your "clauses" confused.

I would be curious to actually see one of these letters. Has anyone actually seen one of these letters or is this all just speculation?

Blue TDMA is off network, they got rid of the TDMA network for the most part round mid march, thats why we out those T&C into effect april 4th.

TDMA was eliminated for sales by orange, and what you pick up now is orange tdma if you a blue customer.thats why the T&C was so important, i deal with both TDMA and GSM, and customers have already gotten the letters in CA, NV, and OR, we are sending them out market by market, all the le...
(continues)

Ok, sounds good.

I don't think permission is the correct way to describe this process.

Permission and acknowledging a term or article in a contract are very different situations.

texaswireless said:
I don't think permission is the correct way to describe this process.

Permission and acknowledging a term or article in a contract are very different situations.

Uh Uh, wrong choice joyce, its in the T&C, you were read thast before a rate plan change was done andwas given in the T&C, it says that by doing this or that,then you agree to the T&C,so by accepting them you gave permission.

Read between the lines... you must be from a call center 🙂

Just because the T&C reads "permission", Dosen't mean it makes good business sence from a reputation stand point.

The deal with the customers not being on the cingular owned network more than half the time was brought on by Cingular divesting its TDMA newtork after most people signed up on it.
I think if the Coveage map that the customer agreed to has significantly changed then the ETF should not be apllied.

I'm sure if you asked a customer if they gave permission for Cingular to pull its reasources from the TDMA network they would say no.


In short. I agree with the push to make everything GSM but there has just been to many changes beyond counsumer control for Cingu...
(continues)

i am from a call center, i believe in that policy and they agreed to it, soi too bad,so sad!!!!!!

Maybe this is a language barrier for you, our Irish friend.

When I say "permission" is not the right choice of words, I am meaning the customer didn't say, "Ok, no problem, do this". They acknowledged the rights demanded by Cingular because they were forced to do so, not by choice.

If when reading them the T&C the customer stopped and said "No I don't agree to that" they would have been told too bad. Take it or leave it.

"Choosing one's words carefully will make one go far" says Confuscious 😁

Maybe you don't understand things like legal terms, you get two choices 1)you take our offer under our Terms,whatever they may be or 2)Piss off,leave take your service elsewhere.

You don't get option C)i'll take your service but not agree to the conditiions.Uh-UH, don't work that way.

So you took the T&C,you are stuck with them, no one forced you take them, you had a choice,thats the bottom line.

Anger makes you powerful, young Jedi.

Dude, slow down, take a deep breath and read what I typed. We just said the same thing.

RELAX!

Actually, you can change the terms of the contract. It's up to the agent to accept the customer's proposal. If I get the contract and scratch out the part about the ETF and the agent takes the copy, the agent agreed to the amendment of the contract. Usually they'll say you can't do that and print out a new one, but sometimes you get either ignorant, busy, or just plain stupid agents that'll take it. That's not my problem though, that's between the agent and Cingular.

Nope you scribble any CRAP you want to, all we care is that we got you on a signature contract, cuz unless you are a lawyer, which i'm hoping you are not ,cuz that would be sloppy, but you can scratch out anything you want- for it to be agreed and acknowledged, anything that scratched out have to then be initialed by both parties, if its not it don't mean the sweat off my socks, nothing.

thats like putting a decimal point in the ETF fee, that don't hold up either, been tried failed and cost customer bout $4000.00 in legal fees for the lesson.

Go ahead we got Sharks on Retainer 24-7!!!!

It only has to be initialed by "the party against whom enforcement is sought". I scratch through the ETF terms and initial, and Cingular's agent takes it, I'm am totally not bound to pay them. Cingular will be seeking enforcement from me. I've signed the contract agreeing to the amendedment.

Yes acutally you do, cuz they have to be initaled by both parties as it has to be a meeting of the minds.That trick has been tried too, cost that customer $400.00 for a call from the legal dept. to explain that to him.

Please do, i got a good idea, give your number to e, i will be more then happy to have the legal team call you, and by seeing the terms they get to charge the cost of any legal fees, then for being told the wrong, you would get the priveldge of $400.00 debited to your account, c'mon if you so sure, put your money behind your actions.

Didn't I just show you what it says? Check the Uniform Commerical Code. Don't be so dimwitted. It's not like I'm pulling it out of the air, it's actual law. It says nothing about a meeting of the minds. All it says is that it must be "signed by the party against whom enforcement is sought." No minds meeting in there.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/ucc.table.html »

There it is. Have at it. Boring as heck.

davidg4781 said:
Didn't I just show you what it says? Check the Uniform Commerical Code. Don't be so dimwitted. It's not like I'm pulling it out of the air, it's actual law. It says nothing about a meeting of the minds. All it says is that it must be "signed by the party against whom enforcement is sought." No minds meeting in there.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/ucc.table.html »

There it is. Have at it. Boring as heck.

Oh wow, a link to cornell university i'm impressed!!!

I really didn't site that was, just the first one that came up when I Googled the UCC.

Wow. This is bloody simple. Why're you even bothering to argue it?

Make any ammendment to the contract, cross the ETF out or bit about financial liability. Hand it to the agent and he files it. The agents's representing Cingular and he's just agreed to those ammendments.

Care doesn't care. That legal bullshit won't hold up with us, and it won't hold up internally, lest you've got a good lawyer. We don't go 'round expecting customers to modify their contractual agreements and we're not presuming customers can. Agents aren't supposed to accept modified agreements.

And even if you do sign a new contract, chances are your ammendments will change--we don't call them renew, we call them refresh. Only the expiration changes, not terms. Upg...
(continues)

What do you mean Care doesn't care, and that it's "legal bull****". What do you think the purpose of having law is? We the people made the law to govern over we the people. The reps should be trained in not taking an altered contract, or Cingular should put a clause in there stating that the contract cannot be altered in any way.

You're exactly right on this David. I worked for an organization that had exactly that problem. It was a nonprofit group and we would take volunteers. We made them sign an agreement to confidentiality and agree to a background check (some of them would handle sensitive materials - to us at least). We would occasionally have someone who would try to cross out one of the items on the application. We took it very seriously for the reasons that you stated (we would then have no legal right to do a background check). If someone did this, they would promptly be given a clean copy of the application to sign.

As long as you are honest about changes that you have made, this is your right in any contract. The people that Austin spoke about w...
(continues)

Whoa, didn't mean to offend you. You got me wrong.

I'm agreeing with you here. You can modify your contract and if the store rep takes it, we should honor it. Somewhere we've got scans of your agreement on a database. Any tier 1 rep might be able to see what you're talking about.

You won't have to get any lawyers involved, just some pushback. Policy thinks it different than law. We're not trained to think that customers can actively change their contract and that reps'll accept them, but if it happens, why *shouldn't* we accept them?

Sure, there's the possibility you'll get pushback that resemble "that's legal bullshit," but it's not because of a lack of law knowledge or a disrespect of it, it's a lack of understanding beyond what ...
(continues)

In this instance, no, they would revert back to their prior contract end date, and if the ETF applies, they would get hit. There is no loophole for this.

You could not, it was and is VERY simple.You migrate to cingular, you are getting a new plan and with new phone discount and new contract, your 30 days buyers remorse is to opt out of the new benefits of what you got, but you are required to revert back to what you had before, and if you don't and are under contract yes the ETF is waived, the reason is that same dept. checks to verify, and if the agreement was not kept the ETF is applied and reffered immed. to OCA outside collection agency, and i have already had disputes, over them,and after telling them you knew you had a contract from before you renewed contracts in the past, don't play naive so reinstate the account or pay us for the contract. 😈 😈 😈

liamdeschain said:
i don't know as to whether the "30 day trial period" would still exist for these customers. so if you did the migration and got the new phone, i'm not sure you'd be able to cancel service without getting an ETF. so either way you might be screwed.

any guesses?


xoxo

I think the guy was saying that he was ok with paying the ETF, anyway. He just also wanted a new phone out of the deal that he could sell.

Well, he'd have a little problem, if you get a phone at a discount and cancel your service, the discount goes away! If you don't return the phone you WILL recieve an updated bill on you CREDIT CARD. That's why we ask for a CC when you buy a phone, so we can charge it for the full amount if something like this happens.

Ok, so, if I'm charged for the full price of the phone, why am I still having to pay an ETF? I thought the ETF was to cover the discount Cingular gave me on the phone when I signed a 2 year contract.

Here's an excerpt from this website (http://207.233.44.253/wms/jordand/23sp/law1/ chp20out.htm)

C. LIQUIDATED DAMAGES VERSUS PENALTIES

1. Liquidated Damages Provision
Specifies a certain amount to be paid in the event of a breach to the nonbreaching party for the loss. Such provisions are enforceable.

2. Penalty Provision
Specifies a certain amount to be paid in the event of a breach to penalize the breaching party. Such provisions are not enforceable.

3. How to Determine If a Provision Will Be Enforced
Ask: (1) When contrac...
(continues)

Ah sir here is the RUB, the ETF is for a service contract not to do a damn thing about the phones, you agree to stay on service for us for a period of either 12 months or 24 months, and you by breaching that agreement agree to pay the Early Teination Fee to compensate the company for you choosing to not complete the agreement of which the company plans and does things like pay their employess, upgrades of networks, based on you paying your bill and having that service, therefore by you terminating service have to compensate the corp. with that ETF.

Think of this way, we are agreeing to lend you credit each month for a service, by you breaching that agreeent early we invoke a early penalty, the ETF.

So then why don't they charge people that aren't under contract a higher fee? You can't charge one person $40/month while they're not under contract and then charge a second person $40/month, have them sign a contract, and then make them pay a $200 ETF. What is Cingular giving them in return for staying 2 years? That's called consideration, and it's an important element of a contract. Without consideration, the contract is voidable.

The only thing I can understand them saying is that the ETF is to cover the discounted phone price, but, they need to put that in their T&C. It's not there, so they can't say that. I already gave you a website where Cingular's ETF would be considered unenforceable. Maybe I'm missing something. I che...
(continues)

Any dumbass has tried to buck the ETF,and the only people who win are people who die, and thats the only way.

The fact is its not just for recovering cost of the phone, its real simple-so simple anyone can understand.

You want a service.I as A company (Cingular) say all right i am willing to do this now i want to sign up with my company for two years as i am commiting to you to provide you service for two years so in effect i am extending you a line of credit for 2 years, if you fufill that agreement you can then be under no further contractual obligations unless you want to sign up again for a new benefit such a discounted cost of a phone or any new benefits that we as a company provide.

Now by extending you this line of credit fo...
(continues)

I understand that, but what am I, the customer, receiving in return for signing a 2 year contract? If I'm not receiving anything but a discounted phone, I should be charged the amount discounted and that's all. That's all that Cingular lost. Any judge would be able to see that. If Cingular's issue was losing the money for the 2 years that the customer promised, Cingular should charge customers off-contract a higher rate because of the risk. There is no risk. And Cingular can sell my number to the next person that walks in their doors to recoup their lost.

Many people blindly pay the ETF or let it go on their credit reports. People also don't bother trying to get Wal-Mart to pay for damage to their cars in Wal-Mart's parking lot ju...
(continues)

No, for signing a contract we agree to provide you the follwing:

1)continous access to our service towers.

2)extending a 30 day line of credit to accumate charges.

3)Allow you access to our towers both within your local area and nationally.

If you don't like our terms, guess what you have the option of gonig somewhere else and attempting to find another posible better offer.

You don't get the luxury of saying, "i'll take your offer but i'm not abiding by your terms", it tells you that by you taking our offer and using our service for a period of more then 30 days then you agree to our terms, if you do not please place your device back into its original packing and return back to where it was sold from.

Fist of all, why do you keep writing as I'm the one trying to get out of an ETF or something? I don't plan on it. Even though it's unenforceable, I don't plan on going through the legal process and what not. Just don't have the time. Although, I am out of school for the summer and getting quite bored only working a 40 hr./wk job 😡 (I was working 40 hours, taking 15 hours of classes, and doing all the studying and homework that comes with it.)

That said, what do I get when I bring my own phone and go month to month? Do I not get continuous access to your towers? Do I not get a 30 day line of credit (which it really isn't a line of credit, but, whatever)? Am I not allowed to use your towers both locally and nationally?

And, si...
(continues)

Your sheer lack of knowledge atounds most of the reps here, who by the way are laughing at you, but thats ok we're really alughing at you ,just with you but you aren't joining in 🤣

You bring your own phone and do you bring your own towers?No, you want to use our towers then you sign a contract agreeing to [ay us a monthly charge to use our towers.do you not go month to month till you fuffill our terms, if you don't like our terms then go blow to the next wireless carrier,no one put a gun to your head, like the gov't says, the wireless phone is a luxury-not a need.


Excuse me you are extended a line of credit every month, do you pay up front for fees-no, you pay after the fact, thats what extending credit is, using now and paying ...
(continues)

How do I have a "lack of knowledge" when I have taken Business Law and given you links and references while all you've told me is complete malarky?

And actually, I do have a contract with you when I'm month to month. It's a monthly contract to use the towers and all the other things you said. I'm paying you a monthly charge to use your towers reguardless of the length of the contract. If the contract is for one day, I still am liable for the payment and Cingular is liable for the access.

And it is not a credit. You don't have a credit account with your electricity providor. It's like a credit account, but not the same thing. It's just delayed billing, billing AFTER you've used the products/services. When someone figures out ...
(continues)

Ahhh yes, law student. That explains much. Would you have someone with two weeks of med school do a heart transplant? I don't think so. Perhaps, young one, you might consider that Cingular, like other "rather large companies", have on their payroll folks who when combined have hundreds of years of experience with the law. While your dorm-room-lawyer antics might impress other young-adults, if you go up against some guy with 30+ years of real-world experience expect to get slapped down.

Don't take this wrong, it's something that happens to nearly everyone as they grow up. But hey, you'll get to do this after you grow up. Companies that get smashed normally did NOT follow the advice of the lawyers. Don't think so? Research the appplicable "...
(continues)

It actually is not a breach of contract. If you read the T&C, it also states that service may be interrupted for up to 48 hours before cingular is liable. It also states that by using the phone even once, you are aggreeing to the terms and conditions of service that cingular has provided you. In those, it also states that if you cancel your service before the end of your contract, you are liable for a ETF.

Read a little further before spouting your student crap.

Wow.

I've no flippin idea what austin45676748646 or whatever that aol-handle is was going on about.

Say you cancel your service during your remorse period, we're not going to charge you an early termination fee--we're giving you that one month to make up your mind. Say you don't return the phone and the store took a xerox of your credit card. They're not using that for reference or records. They're going to charge you the full price of the phone since they won't make commission.

You return the equipment, you won't get charged.

Some stores'll let you do this for just the first thirty days, stores like Mobile Solutions'll ask for six months.

It's the store compensating for loss off of comission and loss of equipment. Not Cingula...
(continues)

Ahh, I didn't know they'd charge you the full price of the phone. So, let's say someone migrates to Cingular to get the free phone then cancels service, they wouldn't be charged the ETF but would have to either return the phone or be charged for the full price?

Isn't that a way to get around the ETF in the situation mentioned in the 1st posting?

They would be charged the full price of the phone if they don't send it back.

The entire bit about the ETF, that's a bit of a loophole Cing's desperately trying to fix. See, when the whole merger thing broke out, migration to Cingular meant relinquishing obligation to AWS and suddenly, bam, you're considering a new orange consumer. Your blue past isn't considered at all.

Cancelling within your first 30 days would mean you're under no one's obligation. That's how it was post-merger. But now that churn's jumping through the roof. They're trying to stop that. You can cancel service with Cingular and not get hit with an ETF, but then they're going to call out a breach on ol' Blue and hit you with that.

Well, that's just wrong. Blue-to-orange migrations that cancel within 30 days revert back to their original contcat end-date as Cingular purchased the ACCOUNTS, not just a customer phone list. Check any wireless company's T&Cs and you should see something about "if company A buys company B then contacts with company B are still valid, but with company A as the new owner".

Well yeah.

I just said that, didn't I? Not the whole AlphaPCS buys BetaTel bit, but the entire cancel within 30 days, the ETF's not coming from the AlphaPCS's agreement, but the former BetaTel agreement. (In this case, A=Cingular, B=AWS).

Yes, YOU are right. Sorry, I missed when I replied.

Here is how it works... If you migrate and you cancel within the 30 days- to avoide early termination you would have to return the equipment BUT if there is time left on your previous AT&T contract they do require that you finish that out... So if you cancel the migration you cancelled your service then there for incurring your ETF. I know it does not seem fair, but it was in their contract... Now, if the aforementioned customer was out of contract when the migration was done, then they can return the equipment within the 30 days and be done with it, no fees 🙂

I understand I'd have to pay the ETF. I'm saying, if Cingular was doing that to a customer, and the customer said "Cingular can bite me, I'm leaving, and I'm paying the ETF to leave," said customer might as well migrate, get the free phone, and turn around and sell it on Ebay. They're up to $50 on there, that'll help defer the cost of the ETF. Then, someone can buy that phone and get service with Cingular without being under contract (I think you can do that).

Sure but guess what we got the customer credit info, and since the phone does come with a price TAG for a cost, we just chargeback the cost value of the value, add it with the other charges for servie fees,ETF's and taxes then ship the whole amount to a OCA, its the same deal as taking a discount for a phone, then cancel cuz its cheaper then full price for a phone, we get you both ways, its nice what chargeback are, and have see them enough to know that we can write an account any time we want.

In case you didn't know Cingular owns it own Collection Agency!!!!!

You can't do that though. Why would you sell something to someone and then charge their card a different price? Can you say credit card fraud? You're just being rediculiuos. Sure, maybe Cingular does that crap, but wait till you do it to the wrong person and Cingular ends up before a U.S. Court of Appeals.

How can you justify charging the customer the full price of the phone AND an UNENFORCEABLE ETF when the customer cancels? Do you have a link to a page where it says if you sign up for our service and cancel, we're going to charge you the full price of the phone (something I can understand them doing) AND charge you an ETF (which is unenforceable).

Ah young one the force is not strong in you let, let it flow from your body while i train you.

If you read the T&C ,and say it with me now "TERMS AND CONDITION OF A "SERVICE" CONTRACT"

Your contract you get is for providing you aceess to our services, just like turning on the power in your place, water in your home, cable in your house.We choose as carriers to say you cancel during that period to charge a early temination of SERVICE penalty.......

Now as to the phone, the phone was given to you for free based on the service being kept.Thats also kept, it goes into further detail that any benefits of that can be taken at ANY time during that period.We will AND DO invoke that when you cancel and do not return our property,therefore w...
(continues)

What do you mean you invoke those charges "when you cancel and do not return our property?" I thought it was MY property. I paid for the phone, it belongs to me. When it's stolen, I pay the deductible, not Cingular.

That aside, I said I can understand Cingular charging for amount they discounted the phone for, but that's all. The rest is unenforceable. Unless you can prove otherwise, there really is no point in you responding.

davidg4781 said:
What do you mean you invoke those charges "when you cancel and do not return our property?" I thought it was MY property. I paid for the phone, it belongs to me. When it's stolen, I pay the deductible, not Cingular.

That aside, I said I can understand Cingular charging for amount they discounted the phone for, but that's all. The rest is unenforceable. Unless you can prove otherwise, there really is no point in you
responding.

I swear ever peckerhead that thinks they can manipulate the system thinks they know it all, you know what go home you momma is calling you, go home little boy ,go home.

Why do you say I'm trying to manipulate the system? Just telling the law like it is. And, by the way, I live at home, mom's asleep, so no, she's not calling. It's a lot less expensive than renting an apartment for $500/month (I give her $100/month just to help out).

davidg4781 said:
Why do you say I'm trying to manipulate the system? Just telling the law like it is. And, by the way, I live at home, mom's asleep, so no, she's not calling. It's a lot less expensive than renting an apartment for $500/month (I give her $100/month just to help out).

Ah princess, you are not telling anything but a load of crap, you got nothing, so take your theories and bury them in the backyard, and leave it to professionals.

What theories are you talking about? Again, I'm showing facts and you're just typing what your company does. Put some meat on those claims. Let's see some cases or evidence to back them up.

He can't. He won't. He doesn't care. He's just being haughty and bogus, and it's not going to get him anywhere. He just wants to see you get all pissed off over this. Ignore him.

Look out! He's in LAW SCHOOL! Kinda like the kid in auto shop fixing the space shuttle. In a few years he will understand why he's so wrong. Problem is, he wants to choose what part of reality applies to him. Let him get bitch slapped by some old guy with 30+ years of real-world experience and he'll change his 'tude.