My view on the NSA situation. (mentioned on the verizon forum)
i already mentioned this on the verizon forum but in short, as long as the government keeps us safe they can do anything neccessary to do so and whether it is by spying on our every movement or calls then so be it. we can not afford another 9/11 or something similiar- our country would be devistated and the finances would be chaotic. (Even worse then it is now- it is pretty bad now)
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What can you possibly do with "call patterns"?? if that is really all they try to analyze with these records.
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well to see who they call, where they call, how many times they call. its for our safety, so why does it make a difference? they already use satelites to spy on us (using gps and others) so who cares if they take our cellular records?
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I personally just dont see what we accomplish by reviewing call records for every person in this country. They'd get way more information from eavesdropping. I know about the satellite part but it's not like they could zoom right into your home to see if you're in the toilet and whatnot..... 😉
I think it violates our rights.
I think it violates our rights.
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well, they can see what people are doing with their phone habbits. perhaps some terrorists are using prepaid or what not, this way they can see their phone records. etc.. (remember there are many cells(i mean terrorists ones) here in the USA)
we never had rights until we declared war on terrorism.
"I know about the satellite part but it's not like they could zoom right into your home to see if you're in the toilet and whatnot..... "
you would be suprised.
we never had rights until we declared war on terrorism.
"I know about the satellite part but it's not like they could zoom right into your home to see if you're in the toilet and whatnot..... "
you would be suprised.
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good with the wink, you'd be amazed at what the beach ball on top of an oh58d can do.
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We complain that the government did not do enough to stop 9-11. Then when they try new steps we complain. Now I don't know if tracking calls will help, but I do know it won't hurt. I am willing to give up some of my freedom to help my country be safe. Just my thoughts right or wrong they are mine....
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Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
-Benjamin Franklin
Or if you think he was too much of a commie i will submit a poor rip-off.
"You and I are told increasingly that we have to choose between a left or right, but I would like to suggest that there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down -- up to man's age-old dream -- the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism, and regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course."
-Ronald Reagan 10/27/1964
-Benjamin Franklin
Or if you think he was too much of a commie i will submit a poor rip-off.
"You and I are told increasingly that we have to choose between a left or right, but I would like to suggest that there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down -- up to man's age-old dream -- the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism, and regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course."
-Ronald Reagan 10/27/1964
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It's impossible to be completely safe and I'd like to see this mad quest for perfect security end. Our efforts could be better focused on making this world a better place for everyone rather than a safer place for a portion of US Citizens.
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alejandro said:
We should start in this country.
yes. and on the gulf coast... i don't see how bush and his supporters justify a billion + dollars a day to keep up the war in Iraq when there are people still living in tents in south mississippi... there are still towns with no gas stations, no restaurants, nothing... but the war on terror will help make the world a safer place. just this past month there were 30+ murders in New Orleans... no one in washington cares because they would rather see our troops die in Iraq than protect their own country agains low lifes and scum bags... i admit i was wrong when i voted for bush... but damn. if those assholes up there can't see that it's time to get out, what good ...
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thats because those people choose to stil live in tents and do not get off their a$$ to help themselves. they expect everything to handed to them on a silver platter. As for New Orleans and MS. it is up to the state government to spend the Federal Money given to them wisely. as for the troops at least support them because they are the ones making the ultimate sacrifice
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hmmm... two things... frist i do support the troops, but not our president. my wife is over there now... and we, along with most of the people she knows over there feels the same way!
and second... are you from the gulf coast? i am. i saw what happened. new orleans is in a situation that it could have helped, but MS got it worse than new orleans did. so i guess the people that lost their homes, jobs, cars, everything... just needs to get up off their ass? there are people still living in tents because there is a housing shortage. fema can only supply so many trailers. and all the apartment buildings that were destroyed? where would those people that lived there put a trailer if they got one. pearlington, ms does not even have a working gas ...
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and second... are you from the gulf coast? i am. i saw what happened. new orleans is in a situation that it could have helped, but MS got it worse than new orleans did. so i guess the people that lost their homes, jobs, cars, everything... just needs to get up off their ass? there are people still living in tents because there is a housing shortage. fema can only supply so many trailers. and all the apartment buildings that were destroyed? where would those people that lived there put a trailer if they got one. pearlington, ms does not even have a working gas ...
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thats because the contractors down there are triple charging the local and state governments for the scost to rebuild the state. as for the Iraqis yes at least they are getting off their ass to help them selves. you do not see it on the news unless you watch Fox News, but most if the, are glad we are there and thatt they have a chance to make something out of their lives instead of being under tyrannical rule. At least our President prays before every decision he makes. It is not up to the Federal Government to rebuild MS and LA it is only their responsiblility to provide money to them and they have. What the state and local governments do with the funds given to them is not the Feds problem
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bocephus81 said:...
thats because the contractors down there are triple charging the local and state governments for the scost to rebuild the state. as for the Iraqis yes at least they are getting off their ass to help them selves. you do not see it on the news unless you watch Fox News, but most if the, are glad we are there and thatt they have a chance to make something out of their lives instead of being under tyrannical rule. At least our President prays before every decision he makes. It is not up to the Federal Government to rebuild MS and LA it is only their responsiblility to provide money to them and they have. What the state and local governments do with the funds given to them is not the Feds problem
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I do not recall anyone asking Iraq if they wanted to destroy the culture they knew for centuries. Honestly if the people are not satisfied, they should have started a civil war themselves, but we would probably stepped in anyway
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There were a number of civil wars in Iraq and they were brutally crushed by Saddam.
In the Kurdish fight, Saddam used gas even on civilians.
Revolting has never been easy. Even the 1776 war for American Independence was difficult even with French meddling and the tactical advantages the Patriots had. The Americans had the advantages of knowing the land better, being able to snipe officers with rifles which was a high tech gun at the time, and the Colonials had some battle experience due to the French-Indian war). Even with all of that, it was barely enough to defeat a half-effort by a distracted British military to put down the revolt.
The idea that the Iraqi people could have helped themselves is an illusion.
In the Kurdish fight, Saddam used gas even on civilians.
Revolting has never been easy. Even the 1776 war for American Independence was difficult even with French meddling and the tactical advantages the Patriots had. The Americans had the advantages of knowing the land better, being able to snipe officers with rifles which was a high tech gun at the time, and the Colonials had some battle experience due to the French-Indian war). Even with all of that, it was barely enough to defeat a half-effort by a distracted British military to put down the revolt.
The idea that the Iraqi people could have helped themselves is an illusion.
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when it had some relevance to cingular as in bellsouth is a culprit. It belongs in the lounge otherwise.
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Yet another example of a speaker using more words to say the same thing. Ol Ben said it so well some 300 years ago, and the words are never truer than now. Our government (which I voted for, and would vote for again) continues to attempt to erode our personal liberties under the guise of security. This administration may never do anything "evil", and the next may not either, but eventually, the precedents being set now will be used by a future administration to completely take away our freedoms. And those of us still around will look around us and say "how did this happen?" It's a slippery slope, my friends, and we need to stop our slide down before it's too late.
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I shouldnt reply because this conversation is turning into a political thread instead of chiding bellsouth and verizon but it doesn't really matter who you vote for both parties are cut from the same cloth and do the same thing. And opposite party members complain about each party doing the same thing that they did when they were in charge. It is spiraling us all down the toilet.
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If you think that allowing the government to spy on your phone habits and internet habits are ok, then you might as well line up and volunteer for the big brother program right now...
It first started with the Patroit Act which allowed the government to monitor even what you buy at Amazon or the types of books that you borrow from the library.
It continued with Patroit Act II which allows the airlines to deny you the right to fly based upon your credit profile and allows for random searches in which your car keys can be deemed a threat.
Now this? Enforce the existing laws that are there. You have just as much of a terrorist threat from the kkk as you do from osama and his friends.
Go after osama and get him, instead of wasting money, ti...
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It first started with the Patroit Act which allowed the government to monitor even what you buy at Amazon or the types of books that you borrow from the library.
It continued with Patroit Act II which allows the airlines to deny you the right to fly based upon your credit profile and allows for random searches in which your car keys can be deemed a threat.
Now this? Enforce the existing laws that are there. You have just as much of a terrorist threat from the kkk as you do from osama and his friends.
Go after osama and get him, instead of wasting money, ti...
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There is a reason why the government didn't follow Qwest's request to go to court before asking Qwest for its customers' records. The Government KNEW the court would not accept that illegal act.
If Verizon continues to do it, they will get sued and will lose billions and billions of dollars.
Go ahead Verizon. Do things behind our back but I warn you. You are going to end up losing.
If Verizon continues to do it, they will get sued and will lose billions and billions of dollars.
Go ahead Verizon. Do things behind our back but I warn you. You are going to end up losing.
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let's say they get ahold of a terrorist suspect cell phone number, trace calls to and from the device, trace calls to and from numbers from the terrorist phone, trace call records from numbers that were gotten from numbers from contact with the cell phone. so lets say you are a pizza delivery person and the affore mentioned terrorist ordered pizza and you cant find the location and call their number to get directions. now all the sudden all of your calls are being traced and so are calls being traced from every call you make and receive from your phone. even though you havent done anything wrong nor has anybody else that you have contact with but now you and everyone you talk to are suspected contacts of a know terrorist. lets say said terro...
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what if the government says you have to stay home and connot leave with out permission? I'm not all that concerned with them collecting data on phone calls because every retailer, banking institution, credit agency or what not out there is collecting data. my concern is that the government is slowly encroaching on it's citizens liberties and doing it with out any public debate.
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then so be it. if it increases our safety then if they want to make those kinds of restrictions then i am all for it.. in some countries they actually have those.. (mostly in israel)
as i said before, as soon as we were at war we have no liberties or freedom.
as i said before, as soon as we were at war we have no liberties or freedom.
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A quote from Ben Franklin
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. "
Another Ben quote
"Tis easy to see, hard to foresee."
Even by collecting all this information it is what is done with that information that will either validate the white house's stance or villify them with all the conspiracy theorists.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. "
Another Ben quote
"Tis easy to see, hard to foresee."
Even by collecting all this information it is what is done with that information that will either validate the white house's stance or villify them with all the conspiracy theorists.
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my point is; we arent hiding anything so give the phone records and they can analyze it. we give more then that (financial etc..) anyway so who cares about phone records?
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nextel18 said:
my point is; we arent hiding anything so give the phone records and they can analyze it. we give more then that (financial etc..) anyway so who cares about phone records?
Because it's illegal.
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who cares.
this is about saving lives and fighting terrorism and it doesnt matter if its illegal or not..
if you have nothing to hide, just share it and thats it..
we have to give a lot of information when we set up for financial accounts, so what does it make a difference if we give them our phone records? nothing!!
this is about saving lives and fighting terrorism and it doesnt matter if its illegal or not..
if you have nothing to hide, just share it and thats it..
we have to give a lot of information when we set up for financial accounts, so what does it make a difference if we give them our phone records? nothing!!
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Hey, if you want to be tracked at all times, because the government doesn't trust you, then fine, be a tool.
Just go ask an Iraqi cillivan how fun it is being watched by thier government.
Just go ask an Iraqi cillivan how fun it is being watched by thier government.
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"Those who trade freedom for safety, will get neither."
-Ben Franklin
Is he an a$$hole for not trusting the government, Nextel18.
-Ben Franklin
Is he an a$$hole for not trusting the government, Nextel18.
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now it's phone records but what is the limit, where is the line in the sand drawn on what the government can go and get with out going thru normal channels I think is the real point though. you go sign up for a bank account and they tell you what they need up front. there are laws that the white house has to abide by also, if they can make up the rules as they go and choose which laws to obey and which laws to toss out the window they are abusing they trust in the people they serve and need to be held accountable just as you or i are if we choose not to fully stop at a stop sign and keep going. if we get caught, we get penalized, if the white house chooses to break a law and get caught they need to face the music. doing what they are doing u...
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since when has congress ever done something? lol. its been taking a long time to actually put into law of what our Pres Bush wants.
i dont care for congress or the senate anymore becuase of so much hatred between the Rs and Ds and the Pres. they dont seem to work together.
the government needs to protect us in any means neccessary so if they will tap into our phones, get our phone records, track where we move (gps and plane tickets), then so be it. we arent hiding anything so who cares?
i dont care for congress or the senate anymore becuase of so much hatred between the Rs and Ds and the Pres. they dont seem to work together.
the government needs to protect us in any means neccessary so if they will tap into our phones, get our phone records, track where we move (gps and plane tickets), then so be it. we arent hiding anything so who cares?
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yep, I dont have anything to hide so I'm not worried about it. just worried about the person that gets in the position to have all this access to my personal information being unscrupulous in how they use it.
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Exactly. If it's illegal for us it should be illegal for them. It doesnt seem fair they can choose to obey some laws and disregard others..... I don't want to say more because there are so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to start... 😕
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now that is a point to be taken under-consideration.
but, i am not worried what they do with it..
but, i am not worried what they do with it..
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nextel18 said:
since when has congress ever done something? lol. its been taking a long time to actually put into law of what our Pres Bush wants.
i dont care for congress or the senate anymore becuase of so much hatred between the Rs and Ds and the Pres. they dont seem to work together.
Funny you say that, considering the legislative branch is republican controlled and have given this president EVERYTHING (Bush has never vetoed anything the congress gives him).
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very good, but lately, congress doesnt seem to be getting anything done.. they just blame each other and thats it...
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Nextel18... I will be putting a phonograph recording on the net of my oma (father's mother). It was her way of saying good bye (she was dying of black lung) and it was the one luxuary she had in 1943. The following is a part of the transcript that you need to read.
Wir sind verlorene Kinder.
We are lost children.
Großbritannien fällt und also Wille wir.
Britain will fall and so will we.
Selbst wenn wir gewinnen.
Even if we win.
Was meinem schönen Land geschehen ist.
What has happened to my beautiful country.
Wo alle meine Söhne, wo die Kinder sind, die im Platz spielen.
Where all my sons, where are the children playing in the yard.
Gehen Sie Kinder hinaus, gehen Urlaub nach Amerika und kommen nicht zurück, bis Herr Ado...
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Wir sind verlorene Kinder.
We are lost children.
Großbritannien fällt und also Wille wir.
Britain will fall and so will we.
Selbst wenn wir gewinnen.
Even if we win.
Was meinem schönen Land geschehen ist.
What has happened to my beautiful country.
Wo alle meine Söhne, wo die Kinder sind, die im Platz spielen.
Where all my sons, where are the children playing in the yard.
Gehen Sie Kinder hinaus, gehen Urlaub nach Amerika und kommen nicht zurück, bis Herr Ado...
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This is nuts! How can we claim to be teaching the world a lesson about freedom when our civil liberties are being stripped away at home. I am constantly amazed at what the government can get people to agree with by using scare tactics.
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nextel18 said:
i already mentioned this on the verizon forum but in short, as long as the government keeps us safe they can do anything neccessary to do so and whether it is by spying on our every movement or calls then so be it. we can not afford another 9/11 or something similiar- our country would be devistated and the finances would be chaotic. (Even worse then it is now- it is pretty bad now)
Being probably one of the older posters on this site, being born in Germany in 1957 and having family members that were part of the Luftwaffe, the Panzerwaffe and the SS, I can say without a doubt this is one of the most disturbing posts I have ever read.
You need to read about the Nazi Germany, the Bolshe...
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After reading this post I realize that I could have posted so much more. From what I remember growing up in a post-war Germany and the change of life when we moved to London.
This topic bothers me incredibly and my thoughts are so scattered because unlike your 20 something americans, I know what it like to hear first hand what it was like. I remember being 4 years old and going to Frankfurt and Muenchen and seeing the destroyed remains of what were beautiful cities before the carpet bombings began.
Then I see BBC News and Deutsche Welle (American News is so biased and censored they are almost pointless) and I hear about Iran and Afghanistan and Iraq. Then they talk about countries with oil like Iran, Russia, and Venezuala and how t...
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This topic bothers me incredibly and my thoughts are so scattered because unlike your 20 something americans, I know what it like to hear first hand what it was like. I remember being 4 years old and going to Frankfurt and Muenchen and seeing the destroyed remains of what were beautiful cities before the carpet bombings began.
Then I see BBC News and Deutsche Welle (American News is so biased and censored they are almost pointless) and I hear about Iran and Afghanistan and Iraq. Then they talk about countries with oil like Iran, Russia, and Venezuala and how t...
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Ben Franklin said something to the effect of this: A country that gives up a little freedom for a little security will lose both and deserve neither.
I don't mind the gov't tracking WHO I call; Cingular already does that. I certainly do mind if they listen in to my conversations without a warrant. The gov't cannot be allowed to listen in to whoever they want, whenever they want, without probable cause. They are obligated to keep the people of this country safe and secure, but they are also obligated to keep us free. If we lose our freedoms, I can promise you that shortly thereafter we will also lose our safety and security.
I don't mind the gov't tracking WHO I call; Cingular already does that. I certainly do mind if they listen in to my conversations without a warrant. The gov't cannot be allowed to listen in to whoever they want, whenever they want, without probable cause. They are obligated to keep the people of this country safe and secure, but they are also obligated to keep us free. If we lose our freedoms, I can promise you that shortly thereafter we will also lose our safety and security.
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I understand your view. I would not trade freedom for security because freedom (some may think this hokey) is the best weapon against terrorism & tyrrany. I can support trading convenience for security - what is needed in my view is discernment separating freedom & convenience.
As posted in the lounge, I an a libertarian conservative. I have a problem with any governmental entity keeping a database of my phone calls, web sites I've visited, purchases on my credit card, whether I own guns or knives or stuffed animals. I think that such a database would be tempting, too tempting, for those with less than noble notions.
I can see a more targeted approach like the mis-characterized NSA intercept program.
I would say the database is ak...
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As posted in the lounge, I an a libertarian conservative. I have a problem with any governmental entity keeping a database of my phone calls, web sites I've visited, purchases on my credit card, whether I own guns or knives or stuffed animals. I think that such a database would be tempting, too tempting, for those with less than noble notions.
I can see a more targeted approach like the mis-characterized NSA intercept program.
I would say the database is ak...
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Actually if you read what the true definitions are of "Democrats, Whigs, Republicans, and Libertarians", Libertarians are the TRUE CONSERVATIVES of all the parties.
Actually I'll surmise for you: (per Wiki)
REPUBLICAN
The term has come in practice to refer to a constitutional system without a hereditary element; a system under which sovereignty resides in the people of the country, as opposed to a person or a small group.
It has also come to describe a number of different organizations, principles, or political movements, and/or the persons supporting such a system.
However, at its most basic, a republican form of government is one in which several states retain some degree of autonomy or independence from the central governing ...
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Actually I'll surmise for you: (per Wiki)
REPUBLICAN
The term has come in practice to refer to a constitutional system without a hereditary element; a system under which sovereignty resides in the people of the country, as opposed to a person or a small group.
It has also come to describe a number of different organizations, principles, or political movements, and/or the persons supporting such a system.
However, at its most basic, a republican form of government is one in which several states retain some degree of autonomy or independence from the central governing ...
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I would like to say that I read this entire post and found it very informative. I honestly didn't know some of this stuff. I always thought that I was democratic because that's how I voted, but I think that I am more Libertarian.
Very interesting. Thank you!
Very interesting. Thank you!
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Wow, you mentioned this on the Sprint forum too. let it be, man. let it be.
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I personally don't care who listens to what I have to say. As one person said, I live a very boring life. If they were listening in on my conversations, all they would hear is what I need from the store, telling my mom how I am, and complaining to my husband about how dirty the house is... BUT, if you are going to listen in on my conversations, you better do it legally! If I can't listen on the line while my husband is on the phone with a rude telemarketer or what-have-you without having first announce my presence, why in the world does the government think that they can just tap in on my phone calls whenever they feel like it?
I feel like that they will abuse that "right" that they feel they have. It will lead to racial and religious pro...
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I feel like that they will abuse that "right" that they feel they have. It will lead to racial and religious pro...
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Terorrists KNOW they are being monitored, so they use prepaid cell phones that cannot be tracked, and other means that are not regular cell phones or landlines.
Look at the Madrid bombings. they used prepaid phones. Bin Laden stopped using a satellite phone in 1998. Al Qaeda is not as stupid as you want them to be. They are evil and deserve the worst, but no stupid.
Our government wants to track us down. Nothing stops a government official from selling somebody's phone records for $1000 to someone who wishes to blackmail said person.
Time for verizon to pay up. There is no way they will win the lawsuit recently filed against them, or any other lawsuit.
Look at the Madrid bombings. they used prepaid phones. Bin Laden stopped using a satellite phone in 1998. Al Qaeda is not as stupid as you want them to be. They are evil and deserve the worst, but no stupid.
Our government wants to track us down. Nothing stops a government official from selling somebody's phone records for $1000 to someone who wishes to blackmail said person.
Time for verizon to pay up. There is no way they will win the lawsuit recently filed against them, or any other lawsuit.
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It's oh so much worse than that.
Ye, there is some non-zero probability that universal surveillance will uncover terrorist activities, though, as you point out, terrorists will take countermeasures.
But it is a historical certainty that unchecked power and unacccountability will be abused. A government concerned that its illegal activities might be leaked would be interested in the calling patterns of government empolyees. How about the calling patterns of people preparing to demonstrate against a government policy? How about the phone records of an opposition political party (think Watergate)? How about the calling patterns of a defendent and his/her lawyer in a trial?
Make no mistake, data WILL be used for these things unl...
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Ye, there is some non-zero probability that universal surveillance will uncover terrorist activities, though, as you point out, terrorists will take countermeasures.
But it is a historical certainty that unchecked power and unacccountability will be abused. A government concerned that its illegal activities might be leaked would be interested in the calling patterns of government empolyees. How about the calling patterns of people preparing to demonstrate against a government policy? How about the phone records of an opposition political party (think Watergate)? How about the calling patterns of a defendent and his/her lawyer in a trial?
Make no mistake, data WILL be used for these things unl...
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I think it is unfair to spy on people who the government knows without a doubt are innocent of having anything to do with the evil terrorists. So many people in America are die-hard patriotic and this is how the government repays them?! Very disrespectful in my book. The Bush administration has made it loud and clear that they do not care one bit about human beings, much less thier own citizens.
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And unfortunately you have corporations like AT&T who are willing and eager participants in the government's unprecedented program to spy on ALL citizens -- not even the former police state of East Germany spied on its citizens to the extent the Bush administration is. Even though I have nothing to hide I plan on not renewing my Cingular contract when AT&T takes over and moving to Verizon who would not take part in this dreadful program despite the bullying of the NaziSA.
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oh get over it they only spied on people with Suspected involvement with terrorists
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That's not true bocephus81. They collected information on MILLIONS of Americans. And believe me. There aren't millions of al qaeda suspects in this country.
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