well how bout ya....good job 😁

for all the idiots out there.....
http://www.cingular.com/download/Cingular%20Terms%20 ... »

We may change any terms, conditions, rates, fees, expenses, or charges regarding your
service at any time. We will provide you with notice of such changes (other than
changes to governmental fees, proportional charges for governmental mandates,
roamer rates or administrative charges) either in your monthly bill or separately. You
understand and agree that State and Federal Universal Service fees and other governmentally
imposed fees, whether or not assessed directly upon you, may be increased based upon the government’s or our calculations.

IF WE INCREASE THE PRICE OF ANY
OF THE SERVICES TO WHICH YOU SUBSCRIBE, BEYOND THE LIMIT...
(continues)

pay attention and read this:

IF WE INCREASE THE PRICE OF ANY
OF THE SERVICES TO WHICH YOU SUBSCRIBE, BEYOND THE LIMITS SET FORTH IN

You are not subscribed to what they are raising!! If you had a text message package and they raised it yes. You are using pay as you go and not subscribed to anything.

Subscription by definition is not something that requires payment. I can unsubscribe to text messaging by blocking it, therefore it is a feature to which I am subscribed too. As laid forth in the terms and conditions which most of you have quoted yet left out the following sentence, customers are LEGALLY entitled to remove themselves from their ETF. I challenge any and all of you to take this to a lawyer, explain the facts without your opinions and watch as the lawyer laughs and says he'd be out of the contract in 5 seconds.

Its not the dollars and cents that are at play here, its the fact that changes can be made without our consent and if done, we can refuse those changes by removing ourselves from the contracts. Its plain as day. If y...
(continues)

Umm and how much would your lawyer charge for this. I would guess an hours worth = 200 - 300 dollars!

Mazzel was using that as an example, you people take things way too serious and to heart.

Elmuchachos is correct in more ways than one. Why do some Cingular Employees always jump all over posters that post something they don't think is correct? It isn't anything personal, just business. Everyone on here has a right to post their opinions but noone on here should be attacking them.

I for one am not a employee nor a cingular user. I was just pointing out I believe he is wrong!

partly because cingular corporate has already released a statement on CSP saying that the increase will not allow customer to cancel their contracts. sorry guys. 😉

yet i already cancelled my contract and when you sign a contract, part of that contract says sms ppu is .10 not .15, sms ppu is a service, the service was raised so contract was voided. A service can be unsubscired to which you can unsubscribe from sms ppu therefore making it a service. A service was increased (which the TOS says cingular can do)therefore(the next sent in the TOS) says customers have the right to cancel without an ETF....

Sprint did the exact same thing that cingular has done. Numerous people have already cancelled contracts for this as have I.

As already explained above, sms pay per use is not a subscription. You may choose to use it if you wish to, but you are not subscribing to a service. That is why they can change the cost of it and not violate the terms and conditions of their contract. Cingulars legal department has already validated this before Cingular ever put it into effect. Customers will be notified by email, and also by notices on their bill 30 days prior to this going into effect. No one is jumping on your case because we love Cingular, we're jumping on your case because you're posting fraudulent information.

whatever you say bud. if you actually canceled your contract over pay per use text (which i doubt you did), then we didn't want you as a customer anyway. see ya! 😁

haha and it's the arrogance and stupidity of reps like you that make me laugh. In 3 years of service with Cingular/ATT, I never ran into a rep that actually knew as much as I did. And you are obviously just another one of Cingular's bitches.

lol, that shows your ignorance. i'm not a rep, i'm an engineer and i have yet to be wrong about cingular policy. i've been here years and have never had anyone know as much as i do! dude, you need to get a life. 🤣

Even if we were to take what you say as truth cingular has not made the change to 15 cents per message yet so they would not void your contract untill the change has been made.

I raised the BS flag on that point also!!

It was on the newest bill of mine about the raise as many other Hofo'ers and if you know how to read, contract says you will contacted via email/bill/text and have 30 days from then to cancel.

I guess you should quit posting useless garbage and actually go read.

It is a PAY PER USE service. You are right, if they raise a subscription service (not a feature) you can get out of your agreement.

We went thought this a few months back with the change on early nights and weekends.

Certainly you are smart enough to realize that all carrier T&C are not written the same?

Just because Sprints change effected them does not mean it will effect Cingular.

Forgive me. My only response to you is to look up the definition of subscription.

By definition it does NOT require a paid sum. We mostly believe it does because thats how we interpret it. Yet the actual definition states multiple uses of the phrase and has some that allow for the idea that a paid sum is required and others that have nothing of the sort.

As it is a "feature" I can unsubscribe to, ie by blocking text messaging I can therefore claim it is a material breach of contract. I bet you don't know what that means either.

Stop defending something when you can't even define it properly.

Per Google

Definitions of subscription on the Web:

a payment for consecutive issues of a newspaper or magazine for a given period of time
agreement expressed by (or as if expressed by) signing your name
a pledged contribution
the act of signing your name; writing your signature (as on a document); "the deed was attested by the subscription of his signature"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

The subscription business model is a business model that has long been used by magazines and record clubs, but the application of this model is spreading. Rather than sell products directly, more and more companies are selling monthly or yearly access to a product or service. This, in effect, converts a one-time sale of a product into a re...
(continues)

The last line of your post proves my point. By definition it is not NECESSARILY a paid option. Had I included that word your entire post would be for naught.

OK. Cingular has their logic, you have yours. They do not believe it is and have recent changes that went (so far) unsuccessfully challenged. If you are indeed an attorney, an I do not believe you are, then you don't have much legal background to support your opinion. You have differences in definition with no context to back your version.

Cingular is not the first to do this, nor will they be the last. Sprint had many other issues so this loophole for them seemed to prove a worthwhile pursuit. Cingular has been successfully lowering their churn for 2 straight years and continue to improve at dramatic rates. I am sure they are willing to let some customers go without a fight if they are reasonably vested, etc. and do not pose a sig...
(continues)

THANK YOU...

Once again, folks...
PAY PER USE: don't use, don't pay!
This is NOT a subscription in any way, shape, or form. I really don't understand how people claim that it is... 🙄

I am an attorney. First of all, this is a breach of contract issue. When you sign the contract with Cingular, it a superscription to their service, which includes many things, including a fixed price for text messages.

By changing their price and putting you on notice of the change, they are asking you for a modification to your contract with them. In ANY contract dealing, if one party pushes a modification, the offeree, customers, have the option to either expressly assent to the modification, or to reject the modification, and thereby void the contract.

You will expressly consent to the new terms when you pay the bill. If you call and reject their terms, you void the contract.

The little blurb about saying you can get out...
(continues)

For a lawyer you can't spell. For all that education you should have bought a dictionary, or atleast spent one of the 8 years in our beloved institutions learning how to use the spell check button.

Beyond that, and the fact I think my four year old nephew has more of a chance of being a lawyer than you. You are correct, Cingular may argue it doesn't violate the TOC's but it does indeed violate the CTIA agreement they signed (article 7).

Im a good enough lawyer to know that an ad hominem attack is no argument. This is not a spelling bee, nor is it any kind of real or important document.

not insulting you, you had it right I just don't believe your a lawyer, you mentioning it does not increase the validity of your post.

LOL. I really am a lawyer, and I know a lot about contract law. Especially something a simple as a contract of service. And just because i don't take the time to spell check my post on this website has no bearing on my profession.

I know that a contract of service is governed by the Restatement Second of Contracts, at least in Texas where i practice.

And i know i'm right. You had it wrong. You don't even need to mention the CTIA. Based on the contract between cingular and its customers, it has offered a modification of the terms. Once an offeror makes an offer to modify, the offeree can either assent or reject.

Simple, this case wouldn't survive a summary judgment under rule 56 of the federal rules of civil procedure. ...
(continues)

You should know that you could agree to allow certain changes in advance. Cingular, in their counsel's opinion, has determined that their agreement has allowed for this change.

Notifying a customer of a change is done for courtesy purposes as well as legal requirements.

Bottom line, unless it is challenged via arbitration or through a court ruling it is not considered a material change to them.

Price is almost always considered a material part of a contract. Because this is a contract of service, and not for the sale of goods, the common law is very strict on these issues. If this were a contract pertaining to a sale of goods, the Uniform Commercial Code would be more forgiving on modifications of this type. However, this is a service agreement. Courts are hostile to contracts in which one party can arbitrarily change price, at least in Texas.

And as Cingular contends in their agreement, PPU is not considered subscription.

The subscriber has not agreed to a set price for a set period. The explanation I have received is that PPU and/or features can be considered a month to month subscription service according to the context of the overall agreement.

Several people here want to take an excerpt from the agreeement and not apply the agreement as a whole. If the section is to be considered binding due to a legal ruling then so be it, but no legal challenge has been won to date to dictate this action.

First you say it's a subscription, then you say it's not. Which is it? I contend it is. Regardless of what cingular claims, courts are very hostile to the idea of one party having the power to change the price of a service at will.

No one can deny that when one signs up for service with cingular, that cingular is asserting that he will be able to use text messaging service. When you sign the contract that service has a fixed price.

Ok, lets assume that a court says that the price of text messages is not part of the subscription. One could argue that he relied on that information under a theory of promissory estoppel. Thereby making the price part of the contract and estopping Cingular from asserting that it is not.


And...
(continues)

I own three Cingular stores. As an agent principal I make inquiries to which I expect answers at very high levels within Cingular.

I have never changed my stance. Cingular believes this portion of the service, subscription, whatever, is not part of the contracted service agreement. Pull out all the theories you like, until a governing body decides YOUR theory is correct Cingular's decision stands.

Finally a voice of reason...

Well Cingular can say that, but that's not the law. While I totally agree that if they say NO, then most people will just give up.

If you think of it reasonably though, i think it's easy to see that it is a part if the contract. Think if they got rid of the service all together, or raised the price to something really high. Because there is no limit to what they can, because they have arbitrary power, the only way they can change the price would be through a modification of the existing contract. When you sign that contract, you are contracting for a service that includes things like voicemail, 3way calling, text messaging,... Under your system, they could just turn off any of those other things without any recourse.

The law do...
(continues)

Does your mom even use text messaging? Come on, don't say she's canceling because of this change. She just wants to get something for free.

Screw all this, "Is it legal" crap. You people are getting phones BELOW COST, for signing up on a contract. If you want to cancel, fine. Do it. Return the phones or pay an ETF though.

jnorris743 said:
Well Cingular can say that, but that's not the law. While I totally agree that if they say NO, then most people will just give up.

If you think of it reasonably though, i think it's easy to see that it is a part if the contract. Think if they got rid of the service all together, or raised the price to something really high. Because there is no limit to what they can, because they have arbitrary power, the only way they can change the price would be through a modification of the existing contract. When you sign that contract, you are contracting for a service that includes things like voicemail, 3way calling, text messaging,... Under your system, they could just turn off any of those other things

...
(continues)

Actually, the word you are looking for is moot, not mute. And in fact, when you ASK to change your rate plan, you are in fact asking for a modification of the contract. Cingular has the option to deny that request. Whats funny is that you are talking about something of which you clearly lack any understanding in, contract law. Next time, go down to your local law library and do some research on the issues, or go down and pick up the Restatement of Contracts second and do some light reading. Maybe then you'll actually have something to back up of this puffing.

spelling aside... i don't think i need a class in law. the pay per use charge is not contracted. period. the service to use text message has not been changed. services available are not contracted... maybe you need a class in law.

Unlike you, I have had them. The service has changed. The agreed upon price has been changed. A service for texts at 10 cents is different from texts at 15 cents.

The service is contracted for. When you sign up for service, you are signing up for the ability to use texts at the price agreed on. Courts have always held that price is a material part of a contract. Changing the price of texts, ergo is a material change to the terms of the agreement. That means that the customer must assent or reject. Simple as that. This is not fancy legalese. It's actually more sensical than what you are saying. Under your theory, they could just turn off all texting, period. To you, there would be no recourse. Where people have relied on th...
(continues)

🤣 ..Great post.. very funny

jnorris743 said:
Unlike you, I have had them. The service has changed. The agreed upon price has been changed. A service for texts at 10 cents is different from texts at 15 cents.

The service is contracted for. When you sign up for service, you are signing up for the ability to use texts at the price agreed on. Courts have always held that price is a material part of a contract. Changing the price of texts, ergo is a material change to the terms of the agreement. That means that the customer must assent or reject. Simple as that. This is not fancy legalese. It's actually more sensical than what you are saying. Under your theory, they could just turn off all texting, period. To you, there would be no recou

...
(continues)

when directory assistance charges change, or regulatory cost recovery fee, TAX or any other standard fee changes, why doesn't that constitute a breach of contract???

texaswireless said:
And as Cingular contends in their agreement, PPU is not considered subscription.

The subscriber has not agreed to a set price for a set period. The explanation I have received is that PPU and/or features can be considered a month to month subscription service according to the context of the overall agreement.

Several people here want to take an excerpt from the agreeement and not apply the agreement as a whole. If the section is to be considered binding due to a legal ruling then so be it, but no legal challenge has been won to date to dictate this action.

please quote where in the TOS it says in the exact wording that PPU is not a subscription. If you can show me where it says P...
(continues)

I have never said it is not up to intepretation.

A man smarter than me once said, "(insert wireless carrier here) is King, it is good to be king."

Cingular has INTERPRETED the agreement to read as I stated. Until YOU get a court or arbitor to agree with YOUR interpretation I will accept theirs. Interpretation is subject to the views of those who might enforce the agreement. While you may have been released from your agreement, for this reason or otherwise cannot be verified, Cingular employees have been directed that THEIR interpretation be followed.

In case you did not already realize, I stopped trying to convince you long ago. For others who may read this they can have two points of view to use and go forward with their decisi...
(continues)

This is not worth argueing about. The cost of taking Cingular to court will far exceed the cost of the ETF, so it's a silly thing to fight about. Either get a txt plan, or don't txt, that way this change doesn't affect you.

You are right, it won't get settled here. All these Harvard and Yale law grads know their legal theories so well.

you did admidt it....but this has got to be the dumbest thing to argue over GET BACK TO WORK AND SELL SOME PHONES!!!!!!! 😈

Look dude, unlike many others here I have not once said Cingular is right (or wrong) on this matter.

If you don't like it challenge it in court. Cingular and their scores of attorney's have decided this does not violate the TOS. What I do know is they have changed features in the past and to date they have not lost a legal challenge on those either.

I am using precedent to make my decision. I hope you know what that means.

there was a material contract change...the principal is the point....what if they said its 49 dollars a sms ppu, you telling me youre just gonna say ok and take it? Because if you're just gonna take it then you are a submissive person. They raised it 50%....thats a substantial increase especially seeing how it cost cingular next to nothing when an sms is sent.

No I wouldn't use it or I would get a text plan. Damn its not hard and not a complex issue. If they were forcing me to pay it then yes. But I have a choice. And to the one that said they canceled their contract already I find it hard to believe as it didn't even go into effect yet.

no, i would just get a plan that makes it cheaper. if i didn't text i would take text of my account all together.

exactly. Wonder why this makes sense to most of the country. I guess there are always people looking to get around something they signed!

you have 30 days from the time you recieve your bill to cancel contract, right now is those 30 days and therefore that is why i was allowed to cancel.

Are you familiar with what a contract and breach of contract are? A contract is a 2 way street. I have kept up my end but cingular has not kept up theirs by changing the contract. That is a breach of contract.

And yes I am looking to leave cingular as they are overpriced and I can get my plan for half as much via cingular.

Some of you may be able to read a contract but its apparent you dont understand what it says.

who are you going with? t-mo?
The thing is though is that sprint verizon and cingular have done the same thing in the past year. It is probably for financial reasons. I'm sure the execs were smart enough to figure they will make more money by raising the ppu rates on sms than the paultry handful of people that will leave the company.

elmuchachos said:
I have already left my contract without paying an ETF.

elmuchachos said:
And yes I am looking to leave cingular as they are overpriced and I can get my plan for half as much via cingular.

So I'm curious, have you already left w/o paying your ETF or not? And why are you leaving Cingular to get a cheaper plan w/ Cingular?

that's exactly what it is, some people always think something is out to get them and looking for a way out of everything 🤣 if you didn't want a contract, you shouldn't have signed one in the first place. just pay full price and get no mtm!

i was looking at csp and it said in very plain english this price increase is not considered a change in the terms of service and does not qualify customers to terminate thier contracts without paying the appropriate fees. sounds to me like you either had a dumb rep on the phone who fell for your mind tricks and dropped you off without understanding what they were doing or ur just lying pick one..

that wasn't directed at me, was it? 🤨 i said that up a few posts. 🙂

naw i was just saying in general it takes a few people to say the exact same thing like 5 times before someone believes it

Playing devil's advocate...

The increase not being a change in terms of service is the opinion of Cingular's legal team. Whether or not it actually is a term of service is something that would be determined if a customer brought litigation. I would guess that Cingular is banking on nobody undertaking the time, energy, and expense of litigation over either a $.05 increase or a $200 etf. However, just because Cingular says that this increase is not a change in terms of service does not necessarily make it so.

A service is something that is provided for a fee and you can unsubscribe/subscribe to. PPU SMS cost a fee and you can opt of of PPU SMS so it clearly makes this a raise in service.

According to you...

I would be willing to bet (if they actually did) Cingular let you out because of many other reasons.

Have fun with your half price service.

what "other" things????? care to explain, because the cs let me out after I read the TOS pg.6 after she kept referring to page 5. Then she was like oh, ok, you are right, hold on one moment and then came back and told me I would not be charged an ETF....youre just mad because you arent correct.

Are you an attorney?

Cingular's attorneys have already reviewed this issue. If she let you out it was for other reasons. Maybe she was uneducated about the fact that Cingular has decided this is not a violation of the TOS. Maybe you have other history on your account. I don't know exactly and it really is not important enough for me to personally know.

What I do know is that folks higher up than her decided this was not a violation. She may have to answer for her actions. As others have posted here; Cingular's decision can very well be challenged in court if someone chooses to do so. Until that time their choice as a company stands.

Wow, you are super smart. You know nothing of contractual obligations both for the buyer and the seller. You Cingular fanboys are too into your jobs to read and think at the same time. I had a reasonable expectation that Cingular would not raise costs at the time I put pen to paper, when they did so, while I can't stop the forthcoming change I can object to it as clearly stated in the terms and conditions in the sentence following the one half a dozen people have posted as the end all be all of the contract.

Some of you really need an education.

🤣 right.....

o mazzel how right you are....cingular may raise their rates on services but we as a customer have the right to say no thanks and opt out of contract....finally someone that can read and understand.

how is it not good thinking?

Because you are speaking about your store as though its a good sample of the Cingular experience.

No, all I'm saying is that it will not effect me and I don't care. And I don't think cingular really cares either just like verizon and sprint when they changed their rates offering a early termination at no penalty. I'm sick of everyone bashing cingular like its the worst company in the world. Yet our quarterly numbers keep getting better and better.

Wow. You don't think Cingular cares? Wow. Do you have any business acumen or do you just think write first, think later?

Well, let me re-phrase that. Sure, cingular cares that they might lose customers. But I'm sure they were smart enough to look at the financial gain from raising the pay per use compared to the financial loss of losing the customers who might terminate early. It would be interesting to see what the actualy number is. I think all most companies "care" about is posting a profit.

I've seen many folks like you on here and you all assume the same thing.

Actions on here do not equal actions in store. This is an online forum. No one here "owes" you good customer service, period. Making points like you have are pretty much worthless.

While I am one of the few who is not anonymous here I still treat people as they treat others. You dump **** on me, or others, and I will smack you right back. I also will disagree adamantly with those whom I believe are wrong and try to post accurate and timely info. No offense to most of you customers or employees but I have almost 15 years of experience in this industry and I am mostly right. Ok, enough rant...

You want kiss ass customer service, look elsewhere.

no one is asking for kiss ace customer service but reps that know something about their product would be nice. See you are getting angry because Mazzel and I actually know something unlike most the people out there and so you cant take advantage of us and that irritates you.

Why do you and Mazzell act like every cingular rep is out to "take advantage" of you. If we took advantage of every customer we helped don't you think we might shooting our selves in the foot in the long run?

OK, you made my point for me. Why are you posting on an anonymous forum looking for correct information and surprised whrn you get a jumble of misinformation?

While there are a few who are consistent here, most are not even close.

I personally don't know your posting history either, but you weren't looking for information with this thread. You weren't looking for reps that know or don't know anything. You think you found a loophole and wanted to inform others for whatever purpose. Please don't twist your intent.

the intent was letting everyone know...i actually started this thread to let people know if they wanted to leave cingy.

As for reps that dont know anything, Im gonna go with the 4 years of moron reps I have dealt with. You may not be one but in 4 years, I have only ran across 1 that knew their stuff. 1 good rep in 4 years is not good.

Sounds good.

you subscribe to email news letters and pay nothing but you subscribe people put the admin block on the acct because they have someone texting their heart out and they don't wanna pay for a package its standard. just a way to get a lil extra dough outta the customer kinda like saying ha ha i told you to get a package and you didnt listen.

That is the worst example ever. Did you think that would prove your point? Seriously, go to merriam webster and look up the definition of subscription. Stop arguing your point. You are wrong, and thats not my words, thats that a court of law would say.

Just to recap about your useless example, I subscribe to the ppu test messaging as I can un-subscribe to it just as easily. Read the terms and conditions again for the sanity of everyone. Its not subject to interpretation, it says if a change is made in one phrase and then following it says in no unclear terms that you are may end your contract subject to no etf should such a change occur.

This isn't rocket science.

Theres no haha I didn't get a package and you didn't listen. Did y...
(continues)

naw actually i wasn't paying attention im was typing and talking at the same time but since you feel you are right and i feel im right you can have it.

Its not about if I feel am I right or not. You weren't actually paying attention. Do you expect me to believe that?

Its not about whether or not I am right, i'm not arguing this for me or for the benefit of others. I'm arguing it because some people have zero idea how to A) interpret the contract or B) understand a contract C) drink too much Cingular kool-aid to realize they are wrong.

What is your position in the wireless industry? Customer, sales, care?

Isn't it finals time? What are you doing kickin around on a wireless forum?

Apartment hunting and I can't pass up my wireless hobby.

man i hate moving.

🙄 I don't see what all the hoopla is about...
PPU=pay per use...don't use it, don't pay!
The End, By Cingular.
The TOS refers to raising prices on SUBSCRIPTION services...in no way can a pay-per-use service be construed as a subscription. They have not raised prices on a SUBSCRIPTION service, therefore there is no breach of contract and no one should be let out of their contract scot free. I'm a Cingy customer and it makes perfect sense to me.

Exactly. if Cingular said, "Mr.Customer, your currently paying 39.99 for the basic plan, but we are increasing your plan to 49.99 monthly and your still going to be under contract." That would be totally wrong and would justify an issue, or complaint, or waived EFT's. Features are not considered to be part of your contract. They are additional features. When you sign your contract, your agreeing to stay with that company for 2 years. Your agtreeing to the rate plan chosen. Each of the add-on features are not part of your contract. They dont require a 2 year agreement. You can take it off, change it, block it... whatever! If you can change it, block it, take it off, then Cingular or Sprint or Verizon or T-Mobile should have the righ...
(continues)

o simple minded ones...as mazzell stated its the principle. I didnt move markets like someone was talking about which has nothing to do with this.

PPU is a service that can be subscribed/unsubscribed from. Therefore it was a raise in the rate of a service. Therefore as a customer you have the right to leave without ETF as I have done.

well, why don't we all just agree to disagree and end this long pointless thread. I'm sure everyone has better things to talk about in the wireless industry. 😁

This argument stinks pretty much man. Lets put it this way, by your reasoning Cingy could just all the sudden increse the minute overage rate on some plan from .45/min to $1.50/min. You would say, well the consumer isn't "subscribed" to those extra minutes so Cingy can do it without violating the TOS. Bull. 🙄

thank you for understanding the principle of the entire situation.

Sangy or ElMuchachos?

I remember when verizon did this last fall. They ended up putting credits back on customers accounts so they couldn't terminate early.

Some of these people amaze me. They signed something for which they have little to no understanding. You lack clairvoyant knowledge of the entire understanding regarding "material breach" of contract.

PPU sms is a subscription service. There is no argument here. As it can be blocked, it can be unsubscribed too. Its labeled as part of my service contract, call it a feature, call it a birthday cake it changes nothing.

Its a violation of the contract as stated forth in the contract. You can sit here and debate the idea of how horrible it is to complain about five cents. Wow five cents. I could care less about five cents. What do I care about is a company that can change the conditions to which I "subscribed." Wow, I used the word again....
(continues)

Mazzel said:
PPU sms is a subscription service. There is no argument here.

Absolutely false.

You have an opinion and so do others. Many others. Cingular's attorneys also have an argument. YOU are not an attorney are you?

If you want to throw in that in X state it is mandated by the P.U.C. that PPU services are subscription then fine, do that and cite your source or state. It was predefined as NOT being a subscription service in Cingular's TOS. Subscription can be defined as a paid service, you choose to say it also can be defined as a non paid service. At that point context is required and you don't like the fact that it is defined as otherwise in the contract.

So, back to you and your chal...
(continues)

Good try and nice retort to my post. Lacks any evidence that I am wrong.

Heres some evidence, as posted above, when Cingular changed the early nights to 8.99, several people took Cingular to arbitration, and you know what they ruled... that it didnt violate the terms and conditions. I dont see how if that wouldnt violate the t&c that changing pay per use rates would. Whats your take?

I don't know much about this? Did this affect existing customers as well as those who signed up after the date of change?

both, a sweep was effected thru the system, the only people that escaped it were the people from a couple of years ago that had 7pm night and weekends included in their core price plan...it was basicly ruled that features arent part of the service as the contract is concerned

Yes, any customer who had the early nights as an add on feature (some of the older plans came with it built into the plan, i.e. instead of having a 39.99 plan with 7$ early nights, it was a 46.99 plan with early nights standard, those were not affected) was changed to the higher rate. A letter was included with their bill for two cycles before the change, and then their rates were changed to 8.99 instead of 7$. Several customers felt that was a violation of their contract, and took Cingualr to arbitration through the independent company Cingular uses for its arbitrations and they deemed that it was not a violation of the contract. Using that principle, I cant imagine anyone ruling that a pay per use feature increase would violate the contrac...
(continues)

So this was taken to an arbitrator that Cingular uses. Not a general court of law. I have a hard time believing this is not a violation of a contract and something tells Cingular positioned the arbitration knowing they would in.

I've spoken to several lawyers about this and they all agree thats its a violation of the contract which is why Cingular includes a paragraph in their terms and conditions to avoid such confusion.

I disagree with that ruling and Cingular raised that rate on me I'd still be fighting it. I will research this more and attempt to ascertain more of the facts for myself.

Once again, no facts, just trying to lie to make bend real facts to something that support yourself. Cingular's arbitrations go through AAA (www.adr.org) an INDEPENDANT arbitration group, not owned/controlled by Cingular. So please, do some fact checking before posting.

You don't very well and obviously lack the idea continuity among messages. The person before me stated it was "the arbitrator that cingular uses,"therefore that was the information I had to go on. Had you decided to further read my post you would caught this amazing sentence. "I will do further research." Wow, lets quote your rebuttal: "so please, do some fact checking before posting."

I see you can't put two and two together. Obviously I made it clear that I would do further research so please before you post again, read to understand.

FYI, most informed people would actually do a little fact finding/research before posting, the old saying, think before speaking.... and if you'll see my original post it stated very clearly cingular used an independent company for arbitration... 2 + 2 is four, maybe you should check your math.

That was the point I made earlier in our discussion. Precedent states that this is NOT a violation of the TOS.

it might not violate Cingular's T & C, but it does violate the CTIA agreement. Which if it was argued on that it would win.

you sir are *drumroll*SURVEY SAY*pause* wrong, read article 7 of the CTIA agreement, its on Cingular.com

CTIA?

Cingular's counsel has already made an announcement regarding this issue and has determined it is NOT a violation of the TOS.

Now, that being said, I have never said it is not legal or subject to challenge. I just know that based on precedent feature changes according to Cingular's TOS are not considered a subscription service for contractual purposes. When they changed the early nights and weekends and made it effective for all existing customers they (so far) survived any legal challenges.

Until you get a court of law to agree with you Cingular's decision, rightly or wrongly, stands.

if you read my post, it spelled it out in bold. Simple. Corporations sometimes try to get over on customers, wireless industry is not excluded from that fault. That is why a consumer code was created and enforced by the CTIA, which Cingular agreed and coluntarily signed. Now by signing this, when they change things that cannot be undone by the customer, like hiking the price of PPU text, they must give customers a 14 day window to allow them out of their contracts. As a customer, I signed up for a service, they expect me to pay my bill, as I expect the same service at the agreed upon price. This is not in my opinion a loophole, but as a safety net to protect customers. If they want to raise the prices it has to be after their contract is end...
(continues)

How is it that EVERYONE in favor of skipping out of your (LEGAL AND BINDING) contracts keeps missing that one little word in the TOS: SUBSCRIBE!!!
PAY.PER.USE.IS.NOT.A.SUBSCRIPTION.

Anyway, .15/txt is becoming the new standard. Deal with it. OR...novel concept...don't text. Use the phone for what it was made to do: CALL!

You obviously have zero lack of any understanding considering the word description. You show zero legal understanding of contracts. Do me a favor, and the rest of you who think that pay per use texting is not a description just stop. You have no bearing for this argument other than your own opinions. Everything on your account is a subscription service as you can unsubscribe to it just as easily. Hence the reason why an admin block is around.

15 cents is becoming the new standard, why because 2 major carriers moved to it. Thank you captain obvious, now tell me how that information helps the argument thats its not a violation of the contract. Use the phone for what it is made for. Yeah ok, do I really need to blast you on this?

Tell me...
(continues)

Mazzel said:
You obviously have zero lack of any understanding considering the word description.

The word what? Please don't tell the English major I don't understand words. Maybe you should learn how to write...🙄

15 cents is becoming the new standard, why because 2 major carriers moved to it. Thank you captain obvious, now tell me how that information helps the argument thats its not a violation of the contract.

Actually more than two...my company charges .15 also...maybe it doesn't have a bearing on the contract...but it's becoming more and more unlikely that you'll find PPU text for less these days...🙄

Use the phone for what it is made for. Yeah

...
(continues)

Use the phone for what it is made for. Yeah ok, do I really need to blast you on this?

Novel concept, isn't it...phones are made to CALL people! It's a PHONE first. 🙄
seriously? Text messaging has become the new way to communicate. It's a cell phone that does more than just make calls. Are you familiar with the sidekick? A cell phone that was designed for texting. Why do you think they make phones with qwerty? So that people can text with greater ease. And why do you think cingy just raised to .15...because they know almost everyone text and .5 ppu extra profit per text adds millions in revenue.
Should i use the eye rolling icon as well to show you how ignorant you are? 🙄 🙄 :ro...
(continues)

I agree. Fact is cancellation department are letting people out of contract, and offering unlimited text.

Fact is that there is no such feature as unlimited Textmessages with cingular. it can not be offered, no matter how many times you say cingular will.

Have you read the 16 page T&C you sign with cingular contract?

One fact is that like in all contracts with companys, it says " you agree to "subject to change"

Didn't they have that as a promo at one time? I was told by a Cingular store rep that I had some promo of unlimited txt.
Very possible he was either stupid or just lying.. I can't tell which I come across more in the stores or which is the simpler explanation.. 😉

Cingular NEVER had an unlimited Textmessage feature. Remember, Sales work for Commission to sign you up for serivce, call customer service, they don`t work for commissions if you want a correct answer.

Sorry.. you are incorrect. Cingular did in fact have a promo - unlimited text the first month after adding a text plan prior to June of 2006.
Not an ongoing "feature" or plan but it was unlimited text for a billing cycle. I guess he wasn't stupid or lying.. 😲

Yes under the subject line Textmessage I explained that Promo already. just 1st months unlimited for $$$ though, not free.

Leandra48 said:
Remember, Sales work for Commission to sign you up for serivce, call customer service, they don`t work for commissions if you want a correct answer.

Sales does indeed work for commissions. A customer has to have a service for six months before the Sales side is payed for it, therefore they try to sell them the correct feature when they ask for it.

Customer Service will likely never talk to the individual again, and is therefore less likely to care what is put on the individuals account.

I couldn't count how many times I've had CS tell a customer they could use MEdia Max on a PDA or insure a phone that wasn't covered.

Vise versa my friend vise versa, but I didn`t want to say it out loud.

Right. Because whenever a person calls into a call center they speak to the same person every time, as opposed to when they go into a store and see a different person every time. The turnover rate is SO high in stores as opposed to call centers.

That was sarcasm.

Knock stores all you want, but the problem lies in call centers, not in retail locations. Sure they get mad at me for not putting a MEdia Max plan on a PDA, but it appears the only ones willing to break policy are the ones who gave them this inaccurate information.

The Promo you might think of is, you get a Textmessage package for $$ a month, and the first months, you have unlimited access to Internet and Messaging, then on the 31st day you have only as much as the package you pay for.

I think its BS. You signed up for a plan, which is not being affected. If it is something that you DID NOT sign up for, then it is not a violation. Those terms are for the plans that you sign up for. If you did not sign up for a plan, you have no terms. You are just going with the going rate, but I will leave it at that. Your point is taken 🙂

Oy, another winner in the argument realm. I hope you don't truly believe you proved your point in here because its obvious you like many others on this board have zero understanding of the terms: "subscription," "contract" and lastly "terms and conditions."

I signed up for pay per use text messaging, it came on the css. I signed it. Its a service I subscribe too. I subscribed to voicemail, three way calling, call forwarding the exact same way. To believe that just because I don't pay for it makes it not a "subscription" services show me further that their is little grasping of the word subscription.

I've seen no one on this board provide any thoughtful insight as to why its not a terms and conditions violation. Can someone please put ...
(continues)

Your conclusion is correct. You do subscribe to all of those things. However, you do in fact fact pay for all of these things every month. Just as you pay for the ability to send text messages. You subscribe to that ability. That's what your monthly payment if paying. You are paying for all of these subscriptions.

You pay for the rate plan, but the rate plan includes all of those things too. Just because they are not laid out in an itemized list with their own price, doesn't mean you are not paying for them.

I tend to disagree with you in that a court would find that a subscription is something you pay for, if there is a contract involved. However, like you said, you do subscribe and *pay* for all of those things. You check ...
(continues)

How exactly can the CTIA enforce this?

Will Steve Largent conjure up some football linebackers and tackle Sigmun until he complies?

The CTIA is an industry lobbying group.

FCC gets involved actually, and then fines. and its Sigman not Sigmun

Whatever. You correct my spelling, I'll correct your knowledge.

You said the CTIA.

Do you know who the CTIA is and why that document was signed? It was done as a lobbying effort to minimize legislation on the wireless industry. It is not enforceable by any particular body.

FCC you say? Sure, you can file a complaint with the FCC. Any idea how many of those complaints result in investigations and/or fines? Look it up, it results in a report each year saying who gets the most complaints. That is about it.

Now you could file a compliant with your state's Public Utlilities Commission. Some state's give that agency some balls, some don't. It also depends on how much time you want to spend because this option is lengthy.

Wh...
(continues)

You are incorrect, sorry my knowledge is correct, I have file complaints with the CTIA personally and got resolution through them. Yes I know how they were created, but I also know how you become a member and remain a member. Check your facts bud!

But they have no ability to enforce anything. You have completely dodged my response.

The CTIA can't get you out of your contract. Most wireless employee have no idea who they are. They cannot fine as you stated.

fcc can fine

OK, but DO THEY? Unless you are Janet Jackson showing off your boobs during the Super Bowl they DO NOT CARE.

Well they have to pay to be a member if they violate the Consumer Code they signed onto, they are in breach of the agreement they signed onto, and can be kicked off of CTIA, loss of money either way.

texaswireless said:
But they have no ability to enforce anything. You have completely dodged my response.

The CTIA can't get you out of your contract. Most wireless employee have no idea who they are. They cannot fine as you stated.

THANK YOU! 🙂 You know, I bet my whole paycheck that if Cingular had decided to LOWER the PPU SMS rate, all you who are claiming this is a material change and you should be let out of your contracts would be silent...

sweetsoprano said:

texaswireless said:
But they have no ability to enforce anything. You have completely dodged my response.

The CTIA can't get you out of your contract. Most wireless employee have no idea who they are. They cannot fine as you stated.

THANK YOU! 🙂 You know, I bet my whole paycheck that if Cingular had decided to LOWER the PPU SMS rate, all you who are claiming this is a material change and you should be let out of your contracts would be silent...

Well if you could read, which you obviously can't....the TOS states INCREASE, so we would not be claiming material changed because only an INCREASE, not a decrease, is a material change.

Do ...
(continues)

former Cingular employee, overly intelligent and ****y, at your service.

Srpint, Cingular, Verizon, whatever you may be doesn't change the fact that the CTIA has no governing or enforcement powers. It is a lobbying and marketing association, pure and simple.

yes but to be a member, you must sign the "Consumer Code" which to remain a member of CTIA the company must adhere to o get kicked out. Thats why its called the CTIA Consumer Code, for litigation purposes if you will (not talking filing a complaint w/ CTIA, which does work) Cingular has that they signed the CTIA Consumer Code on the front of their stores, in a court someone can sue false advertisement, if they do not adhere. So sorry.

I feel like Tom Cruise's character in A Few Good Men...

"It doesn't matter what you think, it only matters what you can prove."

First, you do not have to sign the consumer code to be a member, you just have to pay enough money. Second, that little "sticker" to which you are referring was sent out as a window cling several years back. Most stores have lost it or simply did not put it up.

The CTIA has no teeth to enforce code, period. They just put on really good trade shows.

So you claim false advertising isn't enforcable? Your point is mute they signed the code they advertise it.

I wonder if you remember this:

https://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=1369 »

As I remember in history, after this occured Cingular setup a department for bringing resolutions to complaints. Yes Cingular does not have to resolve complaints from businesses and organizations they are a part of, but it happens Cingular wants to keep a reputable name. If you want to prove me wrong, file a complaint and see what happens. I have in the past. Worked.

I give no validity to your argument. This went from a "CTIA can enforce contract terms" to "Cingular is false advertising and can be sued".

I have not responsed to numerous complaints from the BBB. Have you ever dealt with them on the merchant side? For the most part it is a joke. You are forced to respond to customer compalints that have no merit (for instance, last one I dealt with was why can't they get a full refund after 90 days and why did they have to pay an activation fee). If I don't choose to waste my valuable time in bowing to these demands I get a threat of being sanctioned or kicked out (when I was a member).

Cingular already had a department to resolve compalints back then, they setup nothing new.

So, to recap:

...
(continues)

lol im a sprint employee with cingular service, i hate sprint

God you both have big winkies.....can you just stop arguing about this worthless topic......and btw unlimited text does exist and it's called /GLOBAL TEXT MESSAGING IM0G 👿

IM0G is that the code for the feature?

Well, the sexual harrasment panda informs the children what sexual harrasment is and that they can sue others for it. Eventually the school system is getting sued right and left for allowing sexual harrasment and the school system loses nearly all its funding to support lawsuits. In the end the town realizes that sueing everyone for dumb reasons is the wrong way to go about things. Just like people always looking for ways to get out of responsibilites such as cell phone contracts.
I know its not the BEST analogy.

Well the thing with people looking to get out of contracts for whatever reason is their choice. I wanted to leave cingular because I was paying dbl what I am paying for sprint now. Also, EVDO is in more areas now than HSPDA. And I finally got a treo with wm. Yeah it has an antenna but who cares, that issue never bothered me on the 650 but I know I'm one of out 1 million that didnt mind the antenna.

Never got the explanation on this one.

How exactly are you paying HALF for sprint over what you paid for Cingular? Unless you were on the wrong plan there is nothing Sprint offers that can equate to this savings.

Thanks

I was paying 39.99 for voice, 39.99 for pda connect(after they forced me off the 29.99 mediamax 1000) and 9.99 for texting.
Thats a total of 90 before taxes and govt fees.

At www.sprint.com/sero with the email [email protected] which is open to the public until the 18th with that email address, I got 50 more minutes, unlimited nite and weekends instead of 5000 on sprint(not that i use that many to matter), 7pm night and weekend start times instead of 9pm on Cingular, unlimited data/email, 1000 text plus insurance for 38 dollars a month before taxes and govt fees. I simply took the printed out page to a local sprint store here in Texas and they got me all set up and with the Sero, I didnt have to do any rebates to get the 700wx for 299....
(continues)

Thanks for the reply.

If you dont have a text plan and you have a pay per use feature then chances are you dont use it enough to make a difference so get over this fuc*ing thread and lets talk about something thats worth debating ... i keep logging on and seeing this stupid thread grow .

Get over it do what you have to do cancel or sue or whatever just stop this damn thread !

Thanks

The box